This allows God to remain in heaven while the merely human son completes his work on earth. But as mentioned, without being divine, Jesus could not have paid for the sins of the entire world nor would he have had the power needed to defeat death. This view denies the eternal pre-existence of Christ, stating that He only came into existence at his birth, and he only adopted certain divine attributes at one of the three previously mentioned events.
In this view, Jesus is not equal with God, but subordinate, which is a clear violation of orthodox trinitarianism, and orthodox Christology.
I could go on and on with the trinitarian texts, but the undeniable testimony of Scripture is that God is a trinity: God exists in three persons, each person is fully God, and there is one God. God is not one essential being who only manifests Himself in three different forms one at a time. Each person of the Godhead is exactly that, a person.
And it should be clear that to deny this is to pave the way to serious error that nullifies the atonement, distorts the person of Christ, and casts serious doubt on the testimony of Scripture. Facebook-f Twitter Instagram. The Danger of Modalism. Other Errors Other serious errors accompany modalism. If God can only exist in one form at a time, then what do we make of the doctrine of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit? What sense do we make of passages about Christ and the Holy Spirit constantly interceding for us before the Father?
Is God jumping around at light speed transforming into each form and playing each part to himself in the mirror? Although it surprised me, I try to think of most surprises as opportunities to learn something new, so here goes:.
When I read your words saying that God fits in the box of the Bible, I wanted to ask whether the Bible contains everything about God. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written. In any event, if there are divine thoughts too deep for words, and the Bible consists of words, then that would also seem to suggest that God transcends the Bible.
Thanks again for reading my meandering and confused questions! Water or ice or vapor all exist as different objects or things. They are not the same thing. One body of water is not the exact same item as vapor in the sky somewhere, or ice in a frozen place.
Its not the same. H2O is not the same H20 in another place. The Triune God is the same thing at the same time. It does not matter if it does not make sense to you. It is incomprehensible to any human yet it is what the Bible clearly teaches and we will probably get to spend eternity pondering it.
God is a mystery as it says in the bible. The Son is the Father is the Holy Spirit. And all 3 are God. You, however, are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, since the Spirit of God lives in you.
But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. Now if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Christ. Same thing. I think the context makes this obvious if you look at it closely. Some people say this is the same thing as what Isaiah 11 says about the 7-fold ministry of the Holy Spirit.
And some people say it refers to Zechariah. Not actual spirits. Now if they are living spirits it is possible they are some angelic beings that minister to God or watch over the 7 churches talked about in revelation. Or it is symbolic that the churches are represented as 7 spirits in the passage. But what we DO know is from the bible. Nothing outside of the bible that is claimed about matters of faith and spirituality can be objectively truthful or trusted.
God reveals Himself in His Word. Not anywhere else. It is not right to assume or say other things not found in the bible are also true. And yes we have the complete Word of God in all 66 books of the bible.
Nothing more is from God and nothing more will be from God. It mentions briefly how or why we got the Bible in its current form. And yes the Holy Spirit when it is time gives us the knowledge of what to say when necessary.
But what it will help you say is whatever the bible teaches. As Christians the Holy Spirit enlightens us to Gods word and we can recover it and mention it when the time comes. That is why we study the bible. That is not some mystical experience or emotion or feeling or some crazy vision or whatever. One of the primary distinctions is that you imply that modalists believe that God only exists, operates in one mode at a time. Well you are Apostolic so of course you are not going to come to the same conclusion as me.
This only means that you are wrong and do not correctly interpret the bible or understand it. If you are not comfortable being called a modalist then embrace trinitarianism and stop believing heresy. Church history also supports this attitude. It is really that simple. Modalism believes what I said it believes in the article. Thanks for the fast response. And brotha, I want all of him-smile. It its our obligation as believers to make our calling and election sure. Do you think you and I can have that kind of dialogue?
It was emotional though. Really now? So then what are you? If you believe in apostolic doctrine you will be apostolic and therefore you will not be Trinitarian and then come to an incorrect view of God. This is common sense. In fact being mormon does not mean he even believes in mormonism.
So yes you claim apostolic and then say youd o not come to the same conclusion as me. Well its obvious. What is your point in complaining about it? You said you were apostolic. If you are not deaf to truth then why do you have a problem with my article? How about proving me wrong instead of complaining? What are you talking about? There is only one avenue to the Lord. And if you go the wrong way down that avenue by misinterpreting Scripture you go the wrong way anyway!
Of course we can. And I am trying to but you seem to be bothered a lot how I respond. Prove my article wrong and tell me why you come to another conclusion.
That is what you should have done to begin with. What conclusion do you come to and why? You missed what I was saying, bro. Listen again. Stop writing people off just because they come from a different perspective than you do-smile.
Listen to what they actually say and then draw a conclusion as the Lord leads. It will make you a better witness. So… let me reiterate… I come from a different perspective that you… but truth is truth. If that truth is in your mouth and it is indeed truth then its from Jesus and I want it!! Not complaining at all… read up Furthermore it is you that did not answer my question me not me refusing you. Here is my question again in case you missed it.
The lord however speaks in many, many ways. By avenue I only meant, which I thought was clear by the context of my usage, that it is a way to see God. You can only be be born again one way and that is Repent, be baptized in Jesus name and you shall receive the Holy Ghost. Ok lets start here.. Most of your statements are based on the Trinity being right making inherently biased; non-objective and thereby invalid in making a case for embracing the Trinity.
If you say so. Before you said you were apostolic. Now you say associate with them. Okay so you have apostolic friends but are not apostolic yourself. What are you? What do you believe? What else am I suppoosed to do? I am not writing you off if I allow you to post. I have to approve each comment. I am also replying to you.
Is this writing you off? No, it is challenging you to argue against the points in my article and provide evidence for why I am wrong. I expect you to do it. The nature of the Triune God is an essential belief to have for salvation.
It is a very serious topic and if you get it wrong you are not going to go to heaven because you do not believe in the same God. My article gave enough reasons for why this is so.
That has nothing to do with modalism. And I am not arguing against the fact God is omnipresent and can hear everyone and pay attention to them at the same time. If you understand God wrong you do not have God. God only speaks through His Word in the Bible and it is clear if you read it that God is Triune and exists in 3 persons who are co-equal in power and authority and are One Being and essence. I think your friends are looking down the wrong avenue or street.
No my argument is from Scripture. My article has it all over the place in proper contexts. I wil refer to my article. When i said historically I mean that even the early church understood this and rejected the idea of a modalistic God. There have been a few heretical groups claiming such an idea that I mentioned in the article.
Because its a non-existent God that denies Jesus Christ and behaves as if the Father suffered and not Christ. It takes away the sacrifice of the Son given by the Father. There are many reasons please read my article.
Not true. My case for the Trinity is in my article please go to it and read it and provide reasons why I am wrong. You keep making baseless claims without a reason. And you wonder why I am a little abrasive with you…. No trickery or double talk here, friend. However, if your definition of modalism is the correct, they are NOT the same.
That name is Jesus. Anything that instructs people to do differently is heresy These core fundamentals are consistent amongst Sabellius Christians, Modalists, the UPC, Oneness Pentecostals, and Apostolics. Would you address my bulleted point within a concise statement of agreement or disagreement with corresponding scripture if possible?
Hoping to hear from you in this, light and I appreciate your patience. Blessings to you, bro. I am also familar with the belieff that Salvation is ffound in the Book of Actsx. There are also many verses of Scripture that prove that Salvation is through faith in Jesus Chirst and not through Baptism in Jesus name and spreaking in tongues as evidence of receiving the Holy Spirit.
I do not waste my time arguing with anyone in the UPC or similar church organizastions because most of what they have to tell me shows just how ignorant of scripture they are. Nor am I complaining. I truly consider it a priviledge that the Lord would allow me to have audience and engagement with you. Now… full disclosure.. How could I love the Jesus and hold that against you. God does not stop being the father to be the son or holy ghost or vice versa.
In fact as as the eternal, omnipresent God who changes not Mal he is all those things at once. I guess you never read the Bible. Otherwise you would know this, unless you want to claim those names are actually names of God. If so prove it. And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him- Col Your response here is all commentary.
You take some truths from the scriptures and construe them in a way that does not reflect what the apostles actually did. In fact, your words here actually condemn me for doing and saying what Jesus and the apostles did and said.
THAT my friend is heresy. For example. I was baptized as Jesus said so again, this is not heretical. Also you need to understand something, bro. Baptism is about covenant. Baptism is to the new covenant what circumcision was to the old covenant.
The bible does about this man except that he was a criminal on the cross next to Jesus. Maybe he was baptized unto repentance by John before. Maybe he was already circumcised. But here are some scriptures. Isaiah For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. Acts 45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Then answered Peter, 47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? Here are some scriptures that speak to this Hebrews Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
You seem to assume that I saying a person is going to be perfect over night. The things I mentioned are just what is in accordance with a holy lifestyle according to the scriptures.
Living holy is a process of being conformed into what God is calling you to be. Where I am now is far different than when I was first born again.
No repentance, no forgiveness and will repent and always seek God over it and will persevere till the end. Tithing is a heart thing, bro. What you do with what you know, however is completely between you and God. Everyone has struggles and vices-I know I do-.
Maybe tithing is one of yours. Ecclesiastes If thou seest the oppression of the poor, and violent perverting of judgment and justice in a province, marvel not at the matter: for he that is higher than the highest regardeth; and there be higher than they. I will ignore what you said about the other stuff because there is no point to talk further about it and I will get to the point and address your bullet points.
God is ONE, but Jesus is one name. Also you could say Jesus Christ. God is all of those at the same time for everything. See you are proving you are a modalist by stating this. God is not acting as everything at the same time but switches modes depending on what He is doing.
And God is identified by all kinds of names. Specifically, being born of the water baptized in Jesus name and of the Spirit being filled with the Holy Ghost evidenced by glossolalia. Born again means repentance and faith: The regeneration by God into a new man who is forgiven by Christ all completely worked by God, enabled by God and given by God for free.
And then saying you MUST speak in tongues is nowhere found in the bible. Speaking in tongues only happened about 4 times in the book of Acts and many people were said to be saved and nowhere is tongues mentioned. Also tongues according to Acts 2 is actual world languages, not babbling nonsense. So you are saying a person has to work hard and be holy to be saved or else he will go to hell anyway? What are you saying by this? I believe God preserves the Christian into good works and when the Christian sins he is still forgiven and will repent and always seek God over it and will persevere till the end.
How convenient for the pastors so they can make money eh? TD Jakes comes to mind. Salvation is instant at repentance. You are promoting a godless belief of works righteousness no better than the Catholics. It is equally dead. I have not done very much posting because I get very angry and frustrated reading responses to Scriptural truth that do not line up with Scripture. I can see from many of the posts that people want to argue about what they believe but when they get a response from someone that refutes what they believe and the refutation is based upon Scripture , they are not willing to accept correction.
The reason is because they create disunity in tthe Body of Christ among the various churches who hold nihtly services on a rotating schedule.. Right on Bill! Just as you see the guy above who is claiming he has a problem and upset at how I respond he has yet to actually argue against my article itself with the scripture I used.
Oh well…. They are very annoying and full of animosity to the Bible. They always ignore scriptures, like ion the case of areasonableanswer, he continues to make baseless claims without posting scripture.
He does not address my article in th slightest then gets mad when I am showing him how bad his arguments are. I find it annoying. Also did you not know that Jesus is what created the world? You said the Father is what created things.
John 2 says the Word created all things, then later in verse 14 it says the Word became flesh who is Jesus Christ. It is clearly not the Father creating.
Colossians also teaches this. If God truly does not change then God does not behave as the Father when he deiced to do one thing then the Son as another. If God truly does not change the triune God is what actually makes sense. A Triune God does not need to change at all in order to work.
If you are saying God is all 3 at the same time then you are speaking of the Trinity. If you are saying He has to be the Father when creating, the SOn when redeeming that is a 1-person-God that changes modes. Thus, modalism. This does not matter. God is God with many names. We must acknowledge this and believe Christ redeemed us and call on His name for salvation since Jesus was who died for our sins.
The Father did not die for our sins so claiming He did, which is what you seem to be saying by stating God is 1 person but acts in different ways, you would be wrong. Thus the point I made in my article.
If this is true how did the criminal on the cross get saved? He was not baptized. This verse is speaking figuratively of spiritual cleaning. This is figurative speech much like the old testament, Example ezekiel where water is used figuratively for spiritual cleansing being sprinkled on israel. Also it is not refering to water from physical birth either. That verse says all 3 names as if God is 3 in One. You cannot get that from this verse and it is obvious.
Your idea of God being one thing in one way and another in another way is purely fiction. Like you said, God does not change. The point I made in my article states this. If you believe the Father is also the Son you are not giving proper credit to the Son of God who is not the Father. This does not teach baptism has to happen for someone to be saved.
It does say people who believe will be baptized out of obligation and witnessing their conversion to the world. But then the condemned are only punished for unbelief not becuase they were not baptized.
Water baptism is not. But salvation through Christ and the baptism of the SPirit which is given to all who repent is. And it is not babbling in tongues either. It gives the pastor or priest the power of salvation by his words. If he chooses not to say Jesus then the person is not saved according to your logic.
But if the pastor says Jesus then the person is saved. This is the absurdity of your claim. Both of the criminals on the cross at one point were mocking God openly.
Only one decided to stop and then repented for his sins. There is no way he was baptized once before, you have to make that up in order to fit your theology. Circumcision also does not save you as Paul said over and over again in Romans and Galatians. The logical explanation is that baptism by water is not important, only repentance is important for salvation and the man went to heaven by his faith. Thats not tongues according to apostolics.
There is no babbling nor is that verse about salvation its about judgment. Yep speaking other world languages that people understand from their counties. Not about salvation. So now they received the Holy Spirit before they were water baptized?
I thought you had to be baptized to be saved. This proves salvation is not by water. Unless you are going to claim the Holy Spirit enters people inside of them and possesses them to babble in tongues while they are unregenerate sinners because they dont have water baptism yet.
Also in Acts 2 3, people got saved and nowhere does it say they spoke in tongues. However it only says the people in the house spoke in tongues who were proclaiming God. So tongues was a sign not that people are saved but that they spoke the truth. The people who were there heard it and repented. If so, you are using a straw man. However, it was modalism that was eventually rejected as unorthodox teaching by the early church councils.
One such neo-pentecostal is the ever popular T. Billy Graham. In , he held a conference at the Georgia Dome with over , attendees. Jakes is quite a phenomenon, but his teaching on the trinity is unmistakably Oneness Pentecostal modalism.
His heretical views have been a topic of discussion and articles by apologetic ministries over the last several years. Creator of the universe. W e believe that Jesus is the Son of God. We believe in the Holy Spirit. In one documented radio broadcast, Jakes was asked how important it was for Christians to believe in the Trinity. Modalism is dangerous because it does not lead people to the God of the Bible.
Modalism is also dangerous because it allows people to affirm something that sounds like orthodoxy without being orthodoxy. My own doctrinal statement on Trinitarianism. Bowman, Jr. A Profile of Oneness Pentecostalism. Matthew 3: 16And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
Jesus coming out of the water. The Holy Spirit descending and lighting upon Him. The Father speaking from Heaven. Three Persons in one scene all One. The most dangerous thing to me is that the Bible says the spirit of antichrist denies the Son and thus denies the Father. The Spirit of antichrist denies the Father. And to say that one will honor the Son but deny the Father is incomprehensible to me.
We confess the Son and thus confess the Father and are saved. To me, it is a terrible thing to say you honor God and honor the Son but deny the Father. John Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. Unless that they are stating that Jesus was in the Father and not yet Begotten. Jesus was the Father and is the Father and is the Father incarnated as the Son. Like, if you have a pie, and the pie is the pie is the pie. You could take the pie and cut it into 3 pieces.
Each piece would be the same pie as one.
0コメント